
K. Ramachandran
: Does the present aggression on Iraq represent a continuation of United
States' international policy in recent years or a qualitatively new
stage in that policy?
Noam Chomsky : It represents a significantly new phase. It is not without
precedent, but significantly new nevertheless..

" . . . The most dramatic case is Turkey. Turkey is a vulnerable
country, vulnerable to U.S. punishment and inducements. Nevertheless,
the new government, I think to everyone's surprise, did maintain the
position of about 90 per cent of its population."
This should be seen as a trial run. Iraq is seen as an extremely easy
and totally defenceless target. It is assumed, probably correctly, that
the society will collapse, that the soldiers will go in and that the
U.S. will be in control, and will establish the regime of its choice
and military bases. They will then go on to the harder cases that will
follow. The next case could be the Andean region, it could be Iran,
it could be others.
The trial run is to try and establish what the U.S. calls a "new
norm" in international relations. The new norm is "preventive
war." Notice that new norms are established only by the United
States. So, for example, when India invaded East Pakistan to terminate
horrendous massacres, it did not establish a new norm of humanitarian
intervention, because India is the wrong country, and besides, the U.S.
was strenuously opposed to that action.
This is not pre-emptive war; there is a crucial difference. Pre-emptive
war has a meaning, it means that, for example, if planes are flying
across the Atlantic to bomb the United States, the United States is
permitted to shoot them down even before they bomb and may be permitted
to attack the air bases from which they came. Pre-emptive war is a response
to ongoing or imminent attack.
The doctrine of preventive war is totally different; it holds that the
United States - alone, since nobody else has this right - has the right
to attack any country that it claims to be a potential challenge to
it. So if the United States claims, on whatever grounds, that someone
may sometime threaten it, then it can attack them.
The doctrine of preventive war was announced explicitly in the National
Security Strategy last September. It sent shudders around the world,
including through the U.S. establishment, where, I might say, opposition
to the war is unusually high. The Security Strategy said, in effect,
that the U.S. will rule the world by force, which is the dimension -
the only dimension - in which it is supreme. Furthermore, it will do
so for the indefinite future, because if any potential challenge arises
to U.S. domination, the U.S. will destroy it before it becomes a challenge.
This is the first exercise of that doctrine. If it succeeds on these
terms, as it presumably will, because the target is so defenceless,
then international lawyers and Western intellectuals and others will
begin to talk about a new norm in international affairs. It is important
to establish such a norm if you expect to rule the world by force for
the foreseeable future.
This is not without precedent, but it is extremely unusual. I shall
mention one precedent, just to show how narrow the spectrum is. In 1963,
Dean Acheson, who was a much respected elder statesman and senior Adviser
of the Kennedy Administration, gave an important talk to the American
Society of International Law, in which he justified the U. S. attacks
against Cuba. The attack by the Kennedy Administration on Cuba was large-scale
international terrorism and economic warfare. The timing was interesting
- it was right after the Missile Crisis, when the world was very close
to a terminal nuclear war. In his speech, Acheson said that no "legal
issue" arises when the United States responds to a challenge to
its "power, position, or prestige", or words approximating
that.
That is also a statement of the Bush doctrine. Although Acheson was
an important figure, what he said had not been official government policy
in the post-War period. It now stands as official policy and this is
the first illustration of it. It is intended to provide a precedent
for the future.
Such "norms" are established only when a Western power does
something, not when others do. That is part of the deep racism of Western
culture, going back through centuries of imperialism and so deep that
it is unconscious.
So I think this war is an important new step, and is intended to be.
Ramachandran
:Is it also a new phase in that the U. S. has not been able to carry
others with it?
Chomsky : That is not new. In the case of the Vietnam War, for example,
the United States did not even try to get international support. Nevertheless,
you are right in that this is unusual. This is a case in which the United
States was compelled for political reasons to try to force the world
to accept its position and was not able to, which is quite unusual.
Usually, the world succumbs.
Ramachandran :So does it represent a "failure of diplomacy"
or a redefinition of diplomacy itself?
Chomsky : I wouldn't call it diplomacy at all - it's a failure of coercion.
Compare it with the first Gulf War. In the first Gulf War, the U.S.
coerced the Security Council into accepting its position, although much
of the world opposed it. NATO went along, and the one country in the
Security Council that did not - Yemen - was immediately and severely
punished.
In any legal system that you take seriously, coerced judgments are considered
invalid, but in the international affairs conducted by the powerful,
coerced judgments are fine - they are called diplomacy.
What is interesting about this case is that the coercion did not work.
There were countries - in fact, most of them - who stubbornly maintained
the position of the vast majority of their populations.
The most dramatic case is Turkey. Turkey is a vulnerable country, vulnerable
to U.S. punishment and inducements. Nevertheless, the new government,
I think to everyone's surprise, did maintain the position of about 90
per cent of its population. Turkey is bitterly condemned for that here,
just as France and Germany are bitterly condemned because they took
the position of the overwhelming majority of their populations.
The countries that are praised are countries like Italy and Spain, whose
leaders agreed to follow orders from Washington over the opposition
of maybe 90 per cent of their populations.
That is another new step. I cannot think of another case where hatred
and contempt for democracy have so openly been proclaimed, not just
by the government, but also by liberal commentators and others. There
is now a whole literature trying to explain why France, Germany, the
so-called "old Europe", and Turkey and others are trying to
undermine the United States. It is inconceivable to the pundits that
they are doing so because they take democracy seriously and they think
that when the overwhelming majority of a population has an opinion,
a government ought to follow it.
That is real contempt for democracy, just as what has happened at the
United Nations is total contempt for the international system. In fact
there are now calls - from The Wall Street Journal ,people in Government
and others - to disband the United Nations.
Fear of the United States around the world is extraordinary. It is so
extreme that it is even being discussed in the mainstream media. The
cover story of the upcoming issue of Newsweek is about why the world
is so afraid of the United States. The Post had a cover story about
this a few weeks ago.
Of course this is considered to be the world's fault, that there is
something wrong with the world with which we have to deal somehow, but
also something that has to be recognised.
Ramachandran :The idea that Iraq represents any kind of clear and present
danger is, of course, without any substance at all.
Chomsky : Nobody pays any attention to that accusation, except, interestingly,
the population of the United States.
In the last few months, there has been a spectacular achievement of
government-media propaganda, very visible in the polls. The international
polls show that support for the war is higher in the United States than
in other countries. That is, however, quite misleading, because if you
look a little closer, you find that the United States is also different
in another respect from the rest of the world. Since September 2002,
the United States is the only country in the world where 60 per cent
of the population believes that Iraq is an imminent threat - something
that people do not believe even in Kuwait or Iran.
Furthermore, about 50 per cent of the population now believes that Iraq
was responsible for the attack on the World Trade Centre. This has happened
since September 2002. In fact, after the September 11 attack, the figure
was about 3 per cent.Government-media
propaganda has managed to raise that to about 50 per cent. Now if people
genuinely believe that Iraq has carried out major terrorist attacks against
the United States and is planning to do so again, well, in that case people
will support the war.
This has happened, as I said, after September 2002. September 2002 is
when the government-media campaign began and also when the mid-term election
campaign began. The Bush Administration would have been smashed in the
election if social and economic issues had been in the forefront, but
it managed to suppress those issues in favour of security issues - and
people huddle under the umbrella of power.
This is exactly the way the country was run in the 1980s. Remember that
these are almost the same people as in the Reagan and the senior Bush
Administrations.
Right through the 1980s they carried out domestic policies that were harmful
to the population and which, as we know from extensive polls, the people
opposed. But they managed to maintain control by frightening the people.
So the Nicaraguan Army was two days' march from Texas, and the airbase
in Grenada was one from which the Russians would bomb us. It was one thing
after another, every year, every one of them ludicrous. The Reagan Administration
actually declared a National Emergency in 1985 because of the threat to
the security of the United States posed by the Government of Nicaragua.
If somebody were watching this from Mars, they would not know whether
to laugh or to cry.
They are doing exactly the same thing now, and will probably do something
similar for the presidential campaign. There will have to be a new dragon
to slay, because if the Administration lets domestic issues prevail, it
is in deep trouble.
Ramachandran :You have written that this war of aggression has dangerous
consequences with respect to international terrorism and the threat of
nuclear war.
Chomsky : I cannot claim any originality for that opinion. I am just quoting
the CIA and other intelligence agencies and virtually every specialist
in international affairs and terrorism. Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy
, the study by the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the high-level
Hart-Rudman Commission on terrorist threats to the United States all agree
that it is likely to increase terrorism and the proliferation of weapons
of mass destruction.
The reason is simple: partly for revenge, but partly just for self-defence.
There is no other way to protect oneself from U.S. attack. In fact, the
United States is making the point very clearly, and is teaching the world
an extremely ugly lesson.
Compare North Korea and Iraq. Iraq is defenceless and weak; in fact, the
weakest regime in the region. While there is a horrible monster running
it, it does not pose a threat to anyone else. North Korea, on the other
hand, does pose a threat. North Korea, however, is not attacked for a
very simple reason: it has a deterrent. It has a massed artillery aimed
at Seoul, and if the United States attacks it, it can wipe out a large
part of South Korea.
So the United States is telling the countries of the world: if you are
defenceless, we are going to attack you when we want, but if you have
a deterrent, we will back off, because we only attack defenceless targets.
In other words, it is telling countries that they had better develop a
terrorist network and weapons of mass destruction or some other credible
deterrent; if not, they are vulnerable to "preventive war".
For that reason alone, this war is likely to lead to the proliferation
of both terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.
Ramachandran :How do you think the U.S. will manage the human - and humanitarian
- consequences of the war?
Chomsky : No one knows, of course. That is why honest and decent people
do not resort to violence - because one simply does not know.
The aid agencies and medical groups that work in Iraq have pointed out
that the consequences can be very severe. Everyone hopes not, but it could
affect up to millions of people. To undertake violence when there is even
such a possibility is criminal.
There is already - that is, even before the war - a humanitarian catastrophe.
By conservative estimates, ten years of sanctions have killed hundreds
of thousands of people. If there were any honesty, the U.S. would pay
reparations just for the sanctions.
The situation is similar to the bombing of Afghanistan, of which you and
I spoke when the bombing there was in its early stages. It was obvious
the United States was never going to investigate the consequences.
Ramachandran :Or invest the kind of money that was needed.
Chomsky : Oh no. First, the question is not asked, so no one has an idea
of what the consequences of the bombing were for most of the country.
Then almost nothing comes in. Finally, it is out of the news, and no one
remembers it any more.
In Iraq, the United States will make a show of humanitarian reconstruction
and will put in a regime that it will call democratic, which means that
it follows Washington's orders. Then it will forget about what happens
later, and will go on to the next one.
Ramachandran :How have the media lived up to their propaganda-model reputation
this time?
Chomsky : Right now it is cheerleading for the home team. Look at CNN,
which is disgusting - and it is the same everywhere. That is to be expected
in wartime; the media are worshipful of power.
More interesting is what happened in the build-up to war. The fact that
government-media propaganda was able to convince the people that Iraq
is an imminent threat and that Iraq was responsible for September 11 is
a spectacular achievement and, as I said, was accomplished in about four
months. If you ask people in the media about this, they will say, "Well,
we never said that," and it is true, they did not. There was never
a statement that Iraq is going to invade the United States or that it
carried out the World Trade Centre attack. It was just insinuated, hint
after hint, until they finally got people to believe it.
Ramachandran :Look at the resistance, though. Despite the propaganda,
despite the denigration of the United Nations, they haven't quite carried
the day.
Chomsky : You never know. The United Nations is in a very hazardous position.
The United States might move to dismantle it. I don't really expect that,
but at least to diminish it, because when it isn't following orders, of
what use is it?
Ramachandran :Noam, you have seen movements of resistance to imperialism
over a long period - Vietnam, Central America, Gulf War I. What are your
impressions of the character, sweep and depth of the present resistance
to U.S. aggression? We take great heart in the extraordinary mobilisations
all over the world.
Chomsky : Oh, that is correct; there is just nothing like it. Opposition
throughout the world is enormous and unprecedented, and the same is true
of the United States. Yesterday, for example, I was in demonstrations
in downtown Boston, right around the Boston Common. It is not the first
time I have been there. The first time I participated in a demonstration
there at which I was to speak was in October 1965.
That was four years after the United States had started bombing South
Vietnam. Half of South Vietnam had been destroyed and the war had been
extended to North Vietnam. We could not have a demonstration because it
was physically attacked, mostly by students, with the support of the liberal
press and radio, who denounced these people who were daring to protest
against an American war.
On this occasion, however, there was a massive protest before the war
was launched officially and once again on the day it was launched - with
no counter-demonstrators. That is a radical difference. And if it were
not for the fear factor that I mentioned, there would be much more opposition.
The government knows that it cannot carry out long-term aggression and
destruction as in Vietnam because the population will not tolerate it.
There is only one way to fight a war now. First of all, pick a much weaker
enemy, one that is defenceless. Then build it up in the propaganda system
as either about to commit aggression or as an imminent threat. Next, you
need a lightning victory. An important leaked document of the first Bush
Administration in 1989 described how the U.S. would have to fight war.
It said that the U.S. had to fight much weaker enemies, and that victory
must be rapid and decisive, as public support will quickly erode. It is
no longer like the 1960s, when a war could be fought for years with no
opposition at all.
In many ways, the activism of the 1960s and subsequent years has simply
made a lot of the world, including this country, much more civilised in
many domains.